I Have a Friend Who Believes Science Disproves Faith

to make his point, he asks the students if any of them believe in God and has them raise their hands -- he points at one of those who raised their hands, and had him stand

"So," he said, "You believe in God." -- Absolutely, sir -- "And what scientific rationale is your belief based on? -- the student looked at him and said, None -- I just believe in God and the Bible based on faith

"That is the problem that science has with God -- science uses empirical, testable, and demonstrable protocols to prove or disprove the existence of things -- God cannot be proved in this way, so He cannot exist"

Hebrews 11:1–3 NIV84

1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

the professor turns again to the student and says, "We all have five senses that we use to identify and observe the world around us -- tell me, son -- have you ever seen God?" -- No -- "Have you ever heard God?" -- No -- "Have you ever felt your God -- tasted your God -- smelled your God? -- Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?" -- No sir, I'm afraid I haven't

"Yet you still believe in Him?" -- Yes -- "According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, we have just proven that God does not exist. -- what do you say to that, son?" -- Nothing. I have only my faith -- "Yes -- faith -- and that's not science and so that's why religion is nothing but fairy tales that cannot be proven"

Sir, can I ask you something? -- "Certainly" -- Is there such a thing as heat? -- "Yes" -- and is there such a thing as cold? -- "Yes" -- No sir, there isn't. -- you can have lots of heat -- even more heat -- superheat -- megaheat -- white heat -- a little heat -- or no heat -- but we don't have anything called cold -- we can hit 459 degrees below zero, which is no heat -- but we can't go any further than that -- there is no such thing as cold -- cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat -- we cannot measure cold"

"So, what is your point, young man" -- It's this -- you rightly state that science if the study of observed phenomena -- but, based on your definition, science is a premise which is flawed ....just like religion -- "Flawed?" -- the professor exclaimed -- "How is science flawed?"

Sir, you are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. -- science can't even explain a thought. -- It uses electricity and magnetism, but a thought has never been seen, much less fully understood -- but we all know that thoughts are real and exist -- so, the absence of something observable doesn't mean it doesn't exist

It takes faith to see God in creation. Many don’t see God in Creation, because they have become convinced that faith in God has been disproven by science. They could believe, they just quit looking. There is a consequence to that.

the student turned to the class -- Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor's brain? -- Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's brain, felt it, touched or smelled it? -- the class roared in laughter

the student turned to the professor -- No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, sir. -- With all due respect, then, how do we trust your lectures, sir?

the room is silent -- the professor stares at the student -- "I guess you'll have to take that on faith, son" -- And, that, sir, was my point -- faith -- believing in that which you cannot see or hear or feel or touch or smell -- doesn't make the object of your faith any less real than anything else

I entered into ministry back in 1999, the year my daughter was born, not because of her, but because of a couple of boys out in Colorado decided to kill some of their classmates because they saw a senselessness in life; not just in death mind you, but in life. Where did they get this idea?

I entered into ministry back in 1999, the year my daughter was born, not because of her, but because of a couple of boys out in Colorado that decided to kill some of their classmates because they saw a senselessness in life; not in death mind you, but in life. Where did they get this idea?

Science class

I’m sure they had great teachers. Teachers who loved their students. Science teachers who wanted them to have a passion for discovery; who taught them the ends and outs of scientific theory. That life came about as a result of evolutionary forces, that free will was irrelevant and purpose was inconsequential; that we originated by chance and that our death would have no significant impact on the world.

I don’t know for sure these things were taught straight out like this, but they are the product of much of our modern science teaching…at least that’s how many take it.

There is many a Christian kid who loves Jesus and loves their church, only to go off to college or high school biology and be confronted with facts and information that seems to confront what they heard in church and they look back and see their faith as irrelevant.

You probably know someone as well who has cooled to Jesus and the church because they couldn’t square their faith and what they understood about science.

It happens easy. We in the church teach kids to trust what the Bible says. We don’t know much about science, so we tell kids to trust God. Then they get to HS or college or just grow up and all of a sudden all the simplicity of the faith that we taught them can’t stand up to the seemingly logical conclusions of science.

Doubt enters in.

It’s not that they don’t believe in the idea of God…it’s just the God they learned about growing up seems so elementary, so simple, requiring a blind faith. Thinking people need more.

Combine that with all the do’s and don’t’s of our faith and frankly it just not worth it.

The fact is though that for many feel that the choice is, believe science or believe the bible; you can’t have both.

Satan wants nothing more than have us doubt God. When we doubt God we stop relying on His power. That’s where our friends are today; for some of us it’s our grand-kids or our kids, our spouses or siblings...and that’s why they don’t experience his power in their lives.

Satan wants nothing more than have us doubt God. When we doubt God he loses power. That’s where most of our friends are today; and that’s why they don’t experience his power in their lives.

That’s why they fall away…They don’t have the faith to stand. And we all know that when you fall away, it’s very hard to come back.

But it doesn’t need to be that way.

The truth is Faith and Science need not be in contradiction. That’s the first objection that I want to look at today.

This is the first thing I want you to be aware of today when you leave.

In fact science as we know it began in a very strange place…the sanctuary.

You see the word science means knowledge and we Christians believe that God created us uniquely with a mind designed to discover, to learn, to steward. And so with our minds we set out to discover and study the natural laws established by God, and this became science as we know it.

Granted there have been many Christians who take a negative view of science. This is nothing new. For instance based on

“The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved.”

says,

“The sun rises and sets and returns to its place.”

The Church said, “Scripture is teaching that the earth is stationary; we’re at the center of the universe, and the sun moves around us.”

Galileo built a telescope and discovered something different and for that he was placed under house arrest for the rest of his life.

The church has some black eyes, it’s true. But remember what C.S. Lewis said,

C.S. Lewis said,

“Men became scientific because they expected law in nature and they expected law in nature because they believed in a legislator.”

Johannes Kepler, who lived in the late 1500s and early 1600s and whose work was foundational for Isaac Newton’s theory of gravity, said this:

“The chief aim of all investigations of the external world should be to discover the rational order and harmony...which has been imposed on it by God, and which he revealed to us in the language of mathematics.”

Means knowledge…knowledge…stewardship

Francis Collins, who directed the Human Genome Project. Listen to what he said:

Science was born out of the church’s teaching of natural laws established by God

“The God of the Bible is also the God of the genome. He can be worshiped in the cathedral or in the laboratory.”

But many scientists are far from there.

Well known atheist scientist William Provine said just before his death:

thoughts

sacrificial love

purpose

“Let me summarize my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear, and I must say that these are basically Darwin’s views. There are no gods, no purposeful forces of any kind, no life after death. When I die, I am absolutely certain that I am going to be completely dead. That’s just all—that’s gonna be the end of me. There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning in life, and no free will for humans, either.”

That’s what I see as the biggest pitfall for people who find science replacing God. The only meaning in life is one they can create.

But Science doesn’t contradict faith. It hasn’t disproven faith. Some folks think so, but it hasn’t.

In fact, there are at least 4 areas that science has contributed a great deal of credibility to God’s existence.

Contributions of science to understanding God:

In fact, there are at least 4 areas that science has contributed a great deal of credibility to God’s existence. It’s not that he needs it, but maybe we do.

1. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (Entropy)

2. Fine Tuning of the Universe (Anthropic Principle)

3. Biological Information

4. Consciousness

1. universe had a beginning -

we talked a little about this last week. But the 2nd law of thermodynamics tells us that things burn out, break down, wear out.

WE have observed in science, that space is expanding, that stars are burning out, that motion is slowing down. WHich means they couldn’t have existed for eternity past, they had to have a start. THat start, that beginning is a sure sign of a creation. As ANdy Rooney or someone on 60 minutes once said: “

The big bang had a big banger.

2. what I call the fine tuning of the universe -

simply, it is amazing that so many things are precisely as they are to support life.

charge on electron

mass of proton

strength of gravity

angle of earth’s tilt

rate of galaxy expansion

As JP Morgan explains, it’s as though you go in a universe factory and see hundreds of dials and switches with multiple settings. Every dial and switch has one setting out of tens or hundreds of settings that is green. As you tour the facility, you realize that every dial and switch is set to green. This didn’t happen by accident.

3. the discovery of

DNA is biological information

information comes from intelligence

Consciousness

4. The fourth discovery of science that contributes to our understanding of God is

real yet invisible

It’s not something that science can explain, but it’s here for sure.

Universe began with consciousness…not matter

Now we Christians need to be honest, there are some problem areas, there are some areas of accepted science that are hard to square with scripture.

evolution

old universe

Archeology

this means we scientists and theologians, have more to learn. That will require a change in thinking for some of us. Which leads to my the 2nd objection:

You remember the scientific process? After making an interesting observation, a scientific mind itches to find out more about it. ...Form a Hypothesis. ...Conduct an Experiment. ...Analyse the Data and Draw a Conclusion. It’s based on things you can observe, measure, quantify, right now, today.

And if you can’t measure it it must not be real. It reminds me of a story that you have probably heard, it goes something like this.

On the first day of class, the professor of philosophy -- an atheist -- starts by telling his class about the problem that science has with the existence of God

to make his point, he asks the students if any of them believe in God and has them raise their hands -- he points at one of those who raised their hands, and had him stand

"So," he said, "You believe in God." -- Absolutely, sir -- "And what scientific rationale is your belief based on? -- the student looked at him and said, None -- I just believe in God and the Bible based on faith

"That is the problem that science has with God -- science uses empirical, testable, and demonstrable protocols to prove or disprove the existence of things -- God cannot be proved in this way, so He cannot exist"

the professor turns again to the student and says, "We all have five senses that we use to identify and observe the world around us -- tell me, son -- have you ever seen God?" -- No -- "Have you ever heard God?" -- No -- "Have you ever felt your God -- tasted your God -- smelled your God? -- Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?" -- No sir, I'm afraid I haven't

"Yet you still believe in Him?" -- Yes -- "According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, we have just proven that God does not exist. -- what do you say to that, son?" -- Nothing. I have only my faith -- "Yes -- faith -- and that's not science and so that's why religion is nothing but fairy tales that cannot be proven"

After a moment, the student gathers himself

"So, what is your point, young man" -- It's this -- you rightly state that science if the study of observed phenomena -- but, based on your definition, science is a premise which is flawed ....just like religion -- "Flawed?" -- the professor exclaimed -- "How is science flawed?"

Sir, you are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. -- science can't even explain a thought. -- It uses electricity and magnetism, but a thought has never been seen, much less fully understood -- but we all know that thoughts are real and exist -- so, the absence of something observable doesn't mean it doesn't exist

the student turned to the class -- Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor's brain? -- Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's brain, felt it, touched or smelled it? -- the class roared in laughter

the student turned to the professor -- No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, sir. -- With all due respect, then, how do we trust your lectures, sir?

the room is silent -- the professor stares at the student -- "I guess you'll have to take that on faith, son" -- And, that, sir, was my point -- faith -- believing in that which you cannot see or hear or feel or touch or smell -- doesn't make the object of your faith any less real than anything else

Science is for sure one way to know things, but it can’t explain everything.

There’s a guy named Sir John Polkinghorne. He’s a physicist from Cambridge, and also happens to be an Anglican priest. And he gives a helpful illustration. Imagine if you saw water boiling in a tea kettle. And so you ask the question, “Why is that water boiling?” And one person says, “Because burning gas has heated the water to the boiling point.” But another person says, “It’s because I want a cup of tea.” So which answer is right? Well, they’re both right. Right? One person is talking about the mechanics, which is what science is really good at.

it’s one way, but only one way

But the other answer is all about purpose. “I want a cup of tea.” It’s not really a scientific answer, but it’s true and it’s actually really important. John Ortberg said it like this:

“Science involves a method that is enormously useful to investigate large chunks of reality, but it is not the only way to know truth. Human life is of great value. That’s true. You know that, but you can’t put it in a test tube. It is wrong to live for selfish greed. That is true. That is moral truth. A society that is unable to recognize the existence of moral truth is headed for serious problems.”

Science can tell us how much of the world works, but it can’t tell us why. It can tell us how our bodies function, but it can’t tell us why they were designed to function that way. Science can tell us all about the stars, the weather, how things grow and die. But Science can’t tell us why. That’s where God speaks.

Psalm 19:1–2 NLT

1 The heavens proclaim the glory of God. The skies display his craftsmanship. 2 Day after day they continue to speak; night after night they make him known.

All of this is interesting stuff to me. Maybe to you. Regardless it is important for each of us. What I don’t want is for someone who loves Jesus, to be confronted with some new “scientific facts” and have their faith turned up side down. We force kids to choose between the bible and “TRUTH”.

We have found that the best way to understand God’s intent is a combination of Scripture, experience, tradition, and reason.

They form a what we call Wesley’s Quadrilateral as representative of how we understand God, creation, scripture, anything from a Christian world view. Whatever we are trying to understand, we start there…Let’s start with scripture for instance. WE begin there. Then let’s add in the traditions of the church that inform it. How has the church understood this? What about experience? How have I experienced this Scripture? what about people in other parts of the world? How has it been applied to the lives of people before? Now comes reason, how do I understand all this? What do I make of what God has said in light of church history and the experience of others today?

95% of science is irrelevant to Christianity and vice versa

Psalm 19:1–2 NLT

1 The heavens proclaim the glory of God. The skies display his craftsmanship. 2 Day after day they continue to speak; night after night they make him known.

Psalm 91:1–3 NIV84

He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of the Lord, “He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.” Surely he will save you from the fowler’s snare and from the deadly pestilence.

95% of science is irrelevant to Christianity and vice versa

Science has supported God though:

universe had a beginning - 2nd law of thermodynamics

fine tuning of the universe - anthro-orientation of creation

charge on electron

mass of proton

strength of gravity

angle of earth’s tilt

rate of galaxy expansion

Biological information

DNA is biological information

information comes from intelligence

Consciousness

real yet invisible

Universe began with consciousness…not matter

evolution

old universe

Archeology

this means we scientists and theologians, have more to learn.

thoughts

All of this is interesting stuff to me. Maybe to you. Regardless it is important for each of us. But what I don’t want is for someone who loves Jesus, to be confronted with some new “scientific facts” and have their faith turned up side down. We force kids to choose between the bible and “TRUTH”.

There is a nother thoughts

It’s happened over and over.

Hear this, science and the bible are different. The bible isn’t a science book. We Christians shouldn’t get caught up forcing Scripture to answer questions that it wasn’t written to answer.

The bible is God's revealed word. IT explains WHY and who; not how and when.

John 1:1–3 NIV84

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Faith on the other hand is

Romans 1:20 NIV84

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Faith on the other hand is

Creation is trying to convince people of the reality of a loving God. The who behind the what. The Why behind the how. But many fail to see him.

So we try to convince them.

So you and I try to convince them of God.

The truth is , you won’t be able to convince people of the reality of God, not by yourself. I haven’t been able to argue anyone into church. I have come to believe a better way is that we understand people, what they are thinking, where they are coming from, then tell them where we come from, not where they SHOULD come from.

The truth is , you won’t be able to convince people of the reality of God, not by yourself. I haven’t been able to argue anyone into church. What’s best is that we understand people, what they are thinking, where they are coming from, then tell them where we come from, not where they SHOULD come from.

How do we do this?

First, we surrender our lives to Jesus. We connect our lives to his and to his people. we allow God to reorient our lives around a relationship with the risen Lord. Then we begin to grow to be like him. WE become a disciple, we learn to follow, how to live and love like Jesus. Then fueled by an unquenchable love for Jesus, we go out to serve and share with others this new life.

You want to convince someone that science hasn’t disproven faith? Be a picture of faith. Live it out, then tell your story.

You see, in today's culture, experience is everything. What they see, they believe. When they see us living out forgiveness, they will trust us because what we do is consistent with what we say we believe. When they see us forgiving those who hurt us, loving those who offend us, serving people who don’t deserve it. Then our lives will have power. Then our arguments about faith will have believably.

You see, what they see in us will become a seed of faith in them, just like creation. You remember the passage we began with,

Hebrews 11:1–3 NIV84

1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Hebrews 11:1-6

purpose

The faith to see God in creation can be made plain for others to see in our lives.

The writer of Hebrews goes on to

Hebrews 11:4–8 NIV84

4 By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead. 5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. 7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith. 8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

The New International Version (1984) By Faith

4 By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

Hebrews 11:4-

Science hasn’t disproven faith. It’s just given people a reasonable explanation for what they see. What people need, is to see is the unreasonable in us. Qualities in us that only square with a living God. unreasonable love, unreasonable joy, unreasonable peace, unreasonable patience, unreasonable kindness, unreasonable goodness, unreasonable faithfulness, unreasonable gentleness and unreasonable self-control.

***********

As Wesleyan's, we are not afraid of science at all. In fact, we are confident that the more scientists discover, the more we will realize how true God’s word is.

This is the character of God that the world is desperate to see alive in us. people are desperate is an unexplainable witness.

We have found that the best way to understand God’s intent is a combination of Scripture, experience, tradition, and reason.

Unexplainable forgiveness, Unexplainablel love, unexplainable grace, compassion, generosity. These are the character of GOd that the world is desperate to see alive in us. people are desperate is an unexplainable witness

They form a what we call Wesley’s Quadrilateral as representative of how we understand God, creation, scripture, anything from a Christian world view. Whatever we are trying to understand, we start there…Let’s start with scripture for instance. WE begin there. Then let’s add in the traditions of the church that inform it. How has the church understood this? What about experience? How have I experienced this Scripture? what about people in other parts of the world? How has it been applied to the lives of people before? Now comes reason, how do I understand all this? What do I make of what God has said in light of church history and the experience of others today?

I Have a Friend Who Believes Science Disproves Faith

Believe: Science or the Bible

Objection: Christianity and science contradict.

The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (Entropy)

Fine Tuning of the universe (Anthropic Principle)

Biological information

Consciousness

Objection: Science is the only reliable source of understanding.